Sunday, October 05, 2008

5769.01.6 Israel the Land of My Possession - Official response from Agudath Yisroel - Avi Shafran - Are we halachically in Galus in EY


This has been posted on

6th of Tishrei 5769 Motzei Shabbos/Shabbat

October 5, 2008 - Gmar Chatima Tova

1. Official questions regarding the status of Yesha and response from Agudath Yisroel - Avi Shafran,  Director of Public Affairs for Agudath Israel  Please circulate. 

2. Are we halachically in Galus even in Eretz Yisroel - Rabbi Hollander responds

3. Are we halachically in Galus even in Eretz Yisroel - Faigy Lobel brings the position of Lubavitch Rebbe

4. Rena Cohen from LevUneshama of  Tsfat speaking out on behalf of YESHA and keeping all of Eretz Yisroel.  BTW they can use some help in Tsfat as well.

5.  Izzy Kaplan of Toronto speaks out for Yesha and against buying Israel Bonds

6. It is unbelievable what they sing in a church in Portugal לא יאומן מה שרים בכנסיה בפורטוגל- רמקולים!- חובה, !


1. Official questions regarding the status of Yesha and response from Agudath Yisroel - Avi Shafran

Robin Ticker wrote:


Dear Rabbi Shafran, amv"sh  

Whatever you send to me should be considered for public distribution.

Official questions awaiting official responses:

What is the position of Moetzet Gedolei Hatorah regarding Yehudah and the Shomron in our day?  Are we entitled to this Land today or is this up to the political decisions of the government of Israel which means the establishment of a Palestinian State and the expulsion of the Jews from Yesha..

If you answer that we are not entitled to Yehudah and the Shomron then what should be the answer for the hundreds of thousands of Jews presently living in Yesha.

If you answer that we are entitled to Yehudah and the Shomron then what is Agudath Yisroel doing proactive to mobilize its people to protest a Palestinian State and keep Yehudah and the Shomron...

What is the position of the Moetzet Gedolei Hatorah regarding territory that have been ceded to the Arabs like Gush Katif and any future negotiations. Are these agreements legal and binding according to the Torah. Have Moetzet Gedolei Hatorah concluded that they are legal agreements altogether.

Thank you so much for responding. 

Rabbi Avi Shafran's response:

On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 2:02 PM, Avi Shafran <> wrote:

The American Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah does not generally take positions on matters of Israeli security.  I do not know if the Eretz Yisrael Moetzes has done so with regard to Yehudah and Shomron (or territory in the Negev that was abandoned).

That the Jewish people is entitled to all of Eretz Yisrael, though, is a truism.  Whether or not we have been zocheh at this point in history to be able to exercise that right, however, is a different, and open, question.  My impression is that most Gedolim in Eretz Yisrael are opposed to a Palestinian state (at least in the absence of a sea-change in Palestinian attitudes).

Should those Gedolim in E"Y ask the American Agudah to organize some sort of public expression of a position, we would obviously treat the request with great alacrity.  To date, though, they have not. 

My follow up sent to Rabbi Shafran in lieu of his official response.

Dear Rabbi Shafran, amv"sh

Can you please provide the names of the Eretz Yisroel Moetzes Gedolei Hatorah or the names of the Gedolim in EY from whom American Agudah are waiting to get direction regarding taking a position?

Gmar Chasima Tova!

Robin Ticker

Dear Readers,

Please send your comments to Rabbi Shafran  and cc:  or bcc: and/or post comments on  Thanks.

2. Are we halachically in Galus even in Eretz Yisroel - Rabbi Hollander responds

That can be a spiritual point of view, but it can NOT be a halachic position. See
שולחן ערוך אורח חיים סימן תקסא סעיף א
[א*] הרואה (א) ערי יהודה (ב) א בחורבנן אומר: ערי קדשך היו מדבר, וקורע (ואינו חייב לקרוע אלא (ג) כשמגיע סמוך להם כמו מן הצופים לירושלים) (ב"י).
משנה ברורה סימן תקסא ס"ק ב
(ב) בחורבנן - אפילו [ב] יושבין בהן ישראל, כיון שהישמעאלים מושלים עליהם מקרי בחורבנן:
In other words, when not ruled by Jews this is Hurban, but NOT when ruled by Jews.

3. Are we halachically in Galus even in Eretz Yisroel - Faigy Lobel brings the position of Lubavitch Rebbe

Dear Robin,
With regard to being in a state of golus, it is worthwhile to mention the official position of Chabad, that all Jews today, whatever their geographic location, are in a state of golus.  This state of golus will continue until Moshiach has stated that it has ended.  Golus is defined (as I understand it) as the opposite of Geulah.  Until there is a world-wide status of geulah sh'laimah, all Jews everywhere remain in Golus.  (Apparently, this does not contradict the idea of "Open your eyes and see the geulah.")  
The Rebbe also maintained (and this statement I agree with): "The only difference between golus and geulah is the aleph -- the alupho shel olam".)  And when Moshiach comes and the redemption comes, the whole world will enjoy the geulah, the whole world will be Eretz Yisroel, and all of present day Eretz Yisroel will become Yerushalayim (with the expansion of the city).  These beliefs explain, among other things, why the Israeli-born Chabadnikim living in the U.S. don't consider themselves Yordim, why Chabad attaches no importance to Aliyah, etc., etc.   At the same time, the Rebbe -- an activist par excellence, fought for every inch of Eretz Yisroel -- but he always related this to the need for pekuach nefesh.
Gmar chatima tova,

4. Rena Cohen from LevUneshama of  Tsfat speaking out on behalf of YESHA and keeping all of Eretz Yisroel.  BTW they can use some help in Tsfat as well.

Rena writes:

Dear friends,
I received this email from friends in Toronto who are truly interested and supportive of Israel and the Jewish people. They, like many of us living in Israel are amazed at the silence of the Jewish world who continue to support the current Israeli government which is planning to give away Jewish land and Jerusalem to our enemies with very little outcry.  This will only provide our enemies with a better access to continue to try to destroy us. 
Many of our Jewish organizations that have been so supportive in the past have also long passed their usefullness and are now creating more problems for us than necessary.  The Jewish Agency and Israel Bonds are but two of these.  Please read the following messages and if you agree, it would be very positive to help us notify people not to purchase Israel Bonds this year as the money they are donating is helping to destroy Israel. 
I don't usually send out things of a political nature but times are getting more and more difficult for Israel's Jewish commuity. We at Lev U'Neshama as well as other non profit organizations are watching our donations slip away. This means that more and more of Tsfat's Jewish children will be going to bed hungry. Would that we could claim some of the dollars that well meaning donors give to Israel Bonds which are then being used to destroy Israel, Heaven forbid. 
All the best for a Gmar Chatimah Tova.
Rena Dvorkin Cohen,
Tsfat, Israel

5.  Israel Kaplan of Toronto speaks out for Yesha and against buying Israel Bonds
From: Israel Kaplan
Date: 05/10/2008 06:18:52
Dear List:
With each passing day it appears that the officials who represent the Israeli government come ever closer to finalizing an agreement with the P.A. Amalek, which is to provide them with a state within the borders of Israel.     Former or current PM Olmert continues to act and represent and control the media airwaves of Israel and demonizes the Torah Zionist communities of Yehuda & Shomron by accusing them of bombing the home of Prof. Zeev Sternhell .    Both Ehud's, Barak and Olmert, have hit the airwaves in Israel condemning the settlers for their attack on Sternhell, one of the architects of Oslo.  
When leadership in a democracy such as Israel make a decision to jump to these conclusions without evidence it is well understood that these two men are paving the way to remove most communities in Judea and Samaria.    I encourage all on this list to read the following synopsis of the situation in Israel and a conclusion on one reaction to dealing with the Insanity that has currently grasped the Jewish People.    Those who disagree with the following stand on Israel Bonds are free to respond or ask me to remove them from this list and those who agree should not thank us for wrting this letter but should rather contact your local Bond Office and let them know how pained you are that Israeli leadership no longer represents the "Jewish" state or the majority of world Jewry and that you can no longer support Israel Bonds.    Now make a pledge to support those in Israel who are defending a Jewish Israel day in and day out.
This pledge will be a true Bond with Israel.


Land of the insane



You have been propelled to a surrealistic universe where people act exactly the opposite of what you would expect.  Where people embrace their enemies and hurt their friends. Where they invite murderers to be their neighbours, and throw kind and gentle people out of their homes. Where people enjoy being ridiculed and trampled upon, but are loath to stand up for themselves with dignity and pride. Where people who express their venomous hatred are considered partners in peace, but those whose hearts overflow with love and devotion are treated like dangerous fanatics. Where the strong and the mighty allow the weak and lowly to degrade, humiliate, and even torture and kill them.

Welcome to Israel. A country whose ownership is beyond dispute— enshrined in the most respected and the holiest document ever to have existed. Is not the Bible the very symbol of truth and the embodiment of justice in all of Western Society? Is not the exclusive and eternal Jewish bond to the Land of Israel the very thread that runs through the entire Bible? 1

In our time G-D has miraculously returned the Land of Israel to its rightful owners. G-D always keeps his word. In the year 2488 from Creation, 1,273 years before the Common Era, on the seventh day of the Jewish month of Adar, Moses stood before the entire Jewish nation. This was the last day of his life. He prophesied in the name of G-D, that although the Jews were about to enter the Holy Land, they would not remain there indefinitely. Eventually their sins would cause them to be banished from the holy soil of Eretz Yisroel, the Land of Israel. But exile would only be temporary. The time would come when G-D would bring them back, this time forever.

G-D will then bring back your remnants and have mercy on you. G-D your Lord will once again gather you from among all the nations where He scattered you. Even if your Diaspora is at the ends of the heavens, G-D your Lord will gather you up from there and He will take you back. G-D your Lord will then bring you to the land that your ancestors occupied, and you too will occupy it. (Deuteronomy, chapter 30).

For almost 2,000 years, Jews prayed every single day for the fulfillment of this prophecy. From that fateful day in the year 69 of the Common Era, when the Roman legions destroyed the holy Temple and scattered the Jews to all corners of the world; seven days a week, 365 days a year, and several times a day. Jews plead with G-D:

Gather us together, from all corners of the world to our Land. (from the Amidah prayer, recited thrice daily).

G-D has granted our generation the privilege of witnessing with our very eyes this ancient prophecy beginning to unfold. He has further granted the Jews of Israel the wisdom and talent to build the mightiest army in the entire region. An army fully capable of subduing its enemies and bringing completed calm and security to the Jews of Israel and security from the most savage and degenerate sub-humans on this planet. Beings, who take pride and pleasure in seeing babies blown to bits—malevolent and wretched megalomaniacs who dream of dominating the world and obliterating anyone who stands in their way. Who fantasize about eternal lust in the Garden of Eden as reward for their vile cruelty.

Yet in spite of the fact that destroying these ignoble degenerates would be the most virtuous and noble of acts in human history—In spite of the ease with which this could be accomplished, the leaders of Israel, backed by its media and academia choose to submit to the baseless and selfish demands of these savage beasts. In an insane display of meek and servile surrender, they callously allow their own brothers and sisters to suffer injury and horrible death.

As if all this would not be enough to boggle the mind, they have now sunk to new depths of depravity. They have declared war against their own people. Not just regular people, but the cream of the crop. Men and women who epitomize the highest ideals of being a Jew; who are overflowing with love for our people, our land, our heritage;  who have with incredible devotion and self-sacrifice built beautiful communities, majestic places of worship, and the finest institutions of learning. It is the lives of these special people that the leaders of Israel have cruelly wrecked. With savage fervor they destroyed decades of hard work and noble accomplishments. They tore away families from their homes, their memories, their schools, and sources of livelihood—beautiful synagogues and yeshivot, kindergartens and kollels, institutions of higher learning were forcefully abandoned; left to be desecrated by wild beasts that walk on two feet and speak Arabic. Beautiful community centers and massive greenhouses were gifted to the unrepentant murderers of our children— keenly aware of the grotesque nature of the savage monsters to whom they are bequeathing these beautiful communities. They also unearthed their departed loved ones from their resting places lest bloodthirsty, despicable creatures mutilate bodies that they have already murdered and desecrate their gravesites causing the families of the departed to once again go through the agony of their painful losses.

And this is only the first step. These Jews are in the midst of planning the destruction of scores of additional communities and wrecking tens of thousands of Jewish lives. They dream about erasing any trace of Jews and Judaism from the holy city of Jerusalem and the Temple Mount. There are simply no words in any language to accurately describe the lunacy and the criminal madness that has infected the minds of the Israeli leadership.



Tishrei 5769

Israeli bonds have always symbolized the aspirations of the Jewish people. Over the years, Jews set aside as much money as they could to invest in the building and development of our Jewish state. There was an intimate connection between the Jews in the Diaspora and the land of Israel. Sadly, this is no longer the case. 

The Israeli government supplies the cement and steel bars to Gaza– which Hamas then uses to build underground bunkers and passageways from which they attack Israeli cities–with the rockets they manufacture, using steel tubes, chemicals and electricity– also supplied by Israel. The government also sends truckloads of Shekels monthly to Gaza, which helps the Hamas terrorist regime to stay in power. The government also facilitated the supply of dozens of armored vehicles, tens of thousands of machine guns and millions of bullets to our terrorist enemies.

There is now a tragic disconnect between the government of Israel and the Jewish people–both in Israel and abroad– brought about by a betrayal by the Israeli government of its responsibilities to the Jewish nation. There is now a widespread realization that this government is not interested in the future of the people of Israel and the Jewish people as a whole. The government orders the army to remove hundreds of checkpoints, leaving Israelis defenseless from Arab attackers– and then arrests those who try to defend their land their homes and families. The original raison d'être of Israel bonds has lost its meaning.

        The Jewish people do not want their money to be administered by a government that ejects Jews from their historical land of 3000 years. 

        The Jewish people do not want the money they invested in bonds to support the creation of another Arab town in Galilee.

        The Jewish people do not want the money they invested in bonds to supply free medical services, electricity, water and fuel to our sworn enemies.

        The Jewish people do not want their funds to support judiciary and penal systems which release murderers of Jewish children – while it incarcerates Jews for defending their homes, their orchards, their very lives – or only for protesting government policies.

We the Jewish people cannot support a government which refuses to evict Arab squatters from JNF or privately owned Jewish lands. Israel Bonds' publicity tells us that bond money goes only to support schools, to build roads, to help widows and orphans – when in fact a good portion of it goes to projects which will ultimately contribute to the destruction of the Israeli state.

No thank you!  Don't invest in Israel bonds!

Instead, invest your money directly in those institutions and organizations which help the majority of the Jewish citizens the government expelled from their homes, who are still without jobs and still live in temporary shacks.

 [Published by your neighbors and friends who are deeply concerned for the survival of Israel and Jerusalem.]

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6. It is unbelievable what they sing in a church in Portugal לא יאומן מה שרים בכנסיה בפורטוגל- רמקולים!- חובה, !

Thank you Pesach Aceman for this link.
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