Dear List, amv"SH
Sometimes, frustration brings out "colorful" language. BAsically, the command core seems to have political rather than military agendas. I like the Judean Autonomy prototype idea because it does not put Judea and Samaria at the mercy of Jews (or as Shmuel puts it unJews) that do not represent the interests of the residents of Judea and Samaria. The Jewish residents of Judea and Samaria have legitimate indigenous rights to settle the Land and live in their communities, not to mention the fact that they happen to be tax paying citizens to the State of Israel. Furthermore, I agree, as Shmuel points out, the 2 State Solution endorsed by Netanyahu and his gov't is self destructive to Am Yisroel and sets a dangerous precedent of appeasing Terrorist regimes throughout the world. Another expulsion, larger scale, like Gush Katif is not an option. It clearly made things much worse from a security standpoint for Southern Israel. (that was an observation of Noveminsker Rav, possibly based on comments from Rav Eliashiv, Rosh Moetzet Gedolei Hatorah, in his public address at the Agudah Conventionin 2007 and is a fact of truth)
I don't think the Nation as a whole is yet ready for Hebraic Law so a Judean self governing autonomy prototype is a logical and sensible way to proceed. Again for all of you participating listeners, we are just engaging publicly over the internet across oceans in a "debate" which is a forum for public expression in a free and democratic society.
On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 1:08 AM, Shmuel HaLevi rfi <radiofreeisrael@gmail.com> wrote:
Tzahal, where I was a fighter, decorated in battle, is far past being "mekulkal". It has been turned by a ghastly "command core" into a body specialized on attacking JEWS and Heritage while it has proven repeatedly being unwilling and or unable to fight the real objectives according to the LAW.We could list those failures including the fact that the command does not even know simple intelligence gathering.The bombastic, pedantic, pushy without "toelet", Aesop's frog like "posah" of the newfangled israeli does not impress anyone anymore. They can all follow Burg.I speak as a former decorated soldier, with decades of service also in the US Department of Defense Military Avionics Programs as a Senior-Fellow Engineer and also to date listed as an Invited Consultant to the IMoD.It is simply appalling the brutal, repulsive turn that unJews gave to what used to be our pride and honor. Tzahal.The unJewish command core, the PR firms supported garbage MUST go before any "kilkul" can really be fixed. Starting with the Barak pompous ass, that being his best attribute and after him, all Staff officers identified with the unJewish school.And YES!. We can easily replace that trash. In fact any 16 Paraguayan Colonels could do a better job than the Barak-Peres self destructive and inimical to Jews "command" in there.SHmuel----- Original Message -----From: Robin TickerTo: משה גולדשמיטSent: Monday, August 16, 2010 2:39 AMSubject: Re: Tzava Haganh LeYisroel or Tzava Haganah LePalitinaim? MOshe Goldsmith responds!bs"d
On Sun, Aug 15, 2010 at 3:34 PM, משה גולדשמיט <leamoshe@netvision.net.il> wrote:
ps- You can also say that Midinat Yisrael has kilkulim- so don't live there????? Darsheyni! So- People davka have to JOIN TZAHAL in order to fix it!
Dear Moshe, amv"sh
Thanks so much for reading and responding.
I hear what you are saying. I am not chas vechalila against IDF. Lehefech. It seems to me that the goals of the IDF has been sabotaged due to Politics, international pressures etc. and the Gush Emunim bloc of soldiers are being tested. I agree with you that we need both the right and the left to defend Am Yisroel. Kol Hakavod to you and Leah and your children and I am jealous that you have been zocheh to have raised a generation of soldiers that fights for Am YIsroel and Eretz Yisorel and I haven't
My concern is that If we dismiss it merely as kilkulim and not address these kilkulim very seriously, these kilkulim are making serious inroads. Soldiers do not know clearly, Halacha Berurah, what to do when IDF orders override Torah. In order to address these Kilkulim seriously, we have to be willing to confront it head on, with clear Halacha that supports a Torah position with some muscle and not merely say soldiers should sit in jail. Sitting in jail is a subservient posture and Torah can not be allowed to be subservient. That is why I am suggesting an alternative militia that will be accountable to Torah first and to the Secular State second. The Unity of Am Yisroel will thereby be preserved since such a fighting unit will beezrat Hashem not allow a Palestinian State and the destruction of Yishuvim and this is the only way we can preserve peace and unity..
Fixing Zahal is not possible unless the political Leadership changes. Joining Zahal in its present state will not help change matters if the Political Leadership runs the show and is acting in response to international pressures and appoints Generals who follow orders based on politics rather than a reasonable defense based on Torah. .
I have sent around ideas as per the creation of a prototype Judean Autonomy that will live in peace side by side with its sister State Israel but is governed by Hebraic .law rather than British and Turkish law. Surely such an autonomy will not be a hostile neighbor to the State of Israel as would be an autonomous Palestinian State and would surely be welcomed by the entire people of Israel as an alternative to a 2 State Solution, Jew vs Arab. Of course all Non Jews should be welcome to continue residing within the boundaries of this Judean Autonomy, on condition that they accept Jewish Sovereignty and abides by the 7 Noahide Laws. (Not very different than a pledge of Allegiance).
This alternative militia of the IDF would then serve the Judean Autonomy and hopefully with collaboration with its sister, the IDF. Of course all this is brainstorming and I welcome all ideas.----- Original Message -----From: Robin TickerTo: ddanon@knesset.gov.il ; zhotovely@knesset.gov.il ; hkatz@knesset.gov.il ; ylevin@knesset.gov.il ; zpinian@knesset.gov.il ; akara@knesset.gov.il ; mregev@knesset.gov.il ; zelkin@knesset.gov.il ; oakunis@knesset.gov.il ; olevy@knesset.gov.il ; mmatalon@knesset.gov.il ; anmichaely@knesset.gov.il ; amiller@knesset.gov.il ; hamar@knesset.gov.il ; fkirshenbaum@knesset.gov.il ; drotem@knesset.gov.il ; lshemtov@knesset.gov.il ; mmozes@knesset.gov.il ; umaklev@knesset.gov.il ; uorbach@knesset.gov.il ; zorlev@knesset.gov.il ; dazulay@knesset.gov.il ; eamsalem@knesset.gov.il ; yvaknin@knesset.gov.il ; nzeev@knesset.gov.il ; amichaeli@knesset.gov.il ; uria@knesset.gov.il ; mbenary@knesset.gov.il ; yakatz@knesset.gov.il ; aeldad@knesset.gov.il ; amir.yakko@gmail.com ; hesderrg@neto.net.il ; yesmalot@netvision.net.il ; levladaat@gmail.com ; midbara@gmail.com ; arielle@emeir.org.il ; bmechina@gmail.com ; office@birkatmoshe.org.il ; ndeiah@barak.net.il ; rachel@yeshivand.com ; y-n-m@bezeqint.net ; office@yhn.co.il ; hesder1@zahav.net.il ; ornahaya@gmail.com ; baruchk@amit.org.il ; henbamidbar@gmail.com ; yptleora@gmail.com ; karo-of@actcom.co.il ; nir_rahel@walla.com ; yeshivakg@gmail.com ; yeshiva@yk8.org ; hesderks@zahav.net.il ; hazder-s@zahav.net.il ; mazkirutrg@gmail.com ; mkahana1@gmail.com ; reuta3@neto.net.il ; yebinot@gmail.com ; office@ysi.org.il ; b-torah@zahav.net.il ; yeshiva2@gmail.com ; lapid@goldmail.net.il ; yeshilo@netvision.net.il ; aryey@shaalvim.co.il ; yeshtkoa@netvision.net.il ; ormeofir@oretzion.com ; oretzion@netvision.net.il ; orotaviv@gmail.com ; office@orashk.org ; shulil@mor.ac.il ; yayeleth@zahav.net.il ; 239704@gmail.com ; bmoriah1@012.net.il ; ayelet@beitorot.org ; y.h.b.shean@gmail.com ; hesder.di@gmail.com ; derechchaim@walla.com ; mira_rat@netvision.net.il ; hesder@gmail.com ; office@yhb.org.il ; shosh@haretzion.or.il ; harshalom1@gmail.com ; drukman@gmail.com ; rettig1@walla.co.il ; gershons@shaalvim.co.il ; yesholon@neto.net.il ; orvi@zahav.net.il ; netivtfahot@bezeqint.net ; yeshivatyafo@gmail.com ; office@yhy.co.il ; misrad@hakotel.org.il ; yhm10@macam.ac.il ; mazkirut@kby.org.il ; yadid55@gmail.com ; sima@rehovot.macam98.ac.il ; Rav Eliezer WaldmanSent: Sunday, August 15, 2010 9:52 PMSubject: Tzava Haganh LeYisroel or Tzava Haganah LePalitinaim?bs"d
Dear Chavrei Knesset and Rosh Yeshivot Hesder:
I am very confused. I am sure many IDF soldiers are confused as well. Many Israeli soldiers are young idealists, lovers of Israel whose only desire is to defend Israel from it's enemies. This is their upbringing and the desire of their families. For this they are willing to be Moser Nefesh and risk their lives. This is consistent with the mission of the IDF.
Are these kids, these young soldiers, now being brainwashed to suppress their ideology, their religion, their Torah, and act contrary to all that they hold dear and "obey orders at all costs", Are they threatened "do as you're ordered" or else you are not a good IDF soldier, not a good citizen of Israel, and will pay the consequences? Is it for this they sacrifice their lives?
We all agree that the IDF must train their soldiers to obey orders. That is necessary for a working army. But that assumes the given that the orders are moral and true to the ideals of the IDF. Tzava Haganah LeYisroel and not Tzava Hagana LaPalistinaim!
How has the IDF become so confused as to betray its mission as a Jewish army ?
May I even dare ask this question in public at the risk of being brought into questioning?
When there is a disconnect between Torah and the army then we have the situation where the naive soldiers are duped into fighting a war that aids the enemy and fights itself.
Now a Million Dollar Question: Should we now advise our boys to refuse to join the IDF based on conscientious objection?
Answer: Let the heads of Hesder not be timid. The majority of the best fighting units are from the religious believing boys. Let them threaten to split from the IDF and establish an alternative militia that is true to Torah and true the ideals of the IDF. Let all the boys refuse to join the existing IDF based on conscientious objection rather then be used.
Next question: How can the Hesder Yeshivot survive without the money from the gov't should the gov't threaten to cut off their budgets?
Answer: Asking this question shows that you agree that the IDF is being immoral by requiring their soldiers to act in ways that is self destructive. Hopefully these questions asked en mass, coupled with our resolve not to accept funding on condition that we are forced to obey immoral orders, in essence blood money, will get the IDF army to reevaluate. Our intention is that they rescind their orders which serves to protect the enemy, expel Jews from their homes and demolish Jewish property. Flexing our Torah muscle will beezrat Hashem coerce the IDF to change their foolish ways which is anyway for their own detriment and against their own inner desire..
However, if the IDF chooses not to submit to the will of the people, and chooses a power struggle, then this concern, ie. cutting off of funding, is a realistic and practical concern.
Here all our lessons on Emunah must come into play. When we believe that Hashem keeps HIS promise to Am Yisroel and will fight for us and defend us when we obey His laws then we must obey His orders at all cost, without regrets. Prayer is our most powerful weapon and beEzrat Hashem we will find the means to accomplish this goal. We have right on our side.
Next million dollar question: Aren't you promoting a split among the Nation, a civil war Chas veshalom?
Answer: Let us stay focused on our goal which is to defend Eretz Yisroel and Am Yisroel. We are hurting our brothers even more if we allow them to help establish a Palestinian State. Such an enemy State we know will be used as a launching ground against all of our brothers including the IDF that has stupidly chosen to defend the "freedom's" of our enemies rather than the legitimate rights of Jews. There is no negotiating in this matter since failure on our part to defend our rights to our Land will only create Sderot magnified and the targets will be Ben Gurion and Tel Aviv. Our actions is for the benefit of the entire Israel and not just for those that believe as we do.
Hashem Oz LeAmo Yiten Hashem Yevarech as Amo Bashalom.
Please read this Arutz7 article:
Anti-Semitic anarchists and leftists, with tacit governmental and IDF support, are threatening the Jewish presence in Hevron, residents charge.
The army allowed anarchists to stage an illegal protest on the Sabbath, blocking a group of Jews who had coordinated permission and military escorts to visit Jewish sites in areas in Hevron that are under Israeli control.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/139110#replies
then please read or reread this one about how the police stops a legal protest against exchanging Gilad Shalit with terrorists Their slogan was Gilad Shalit but not at any cost.
http://shemittahrediscovered.blogspot.com/2010/08/from-matot-arim-where-is-democracy-in.html
These are just two examples. I know that there are many more.
by the way, not only religious nationalist feel this way. Many Chareidim feel this way as well. Perhaps they would join the army more readily in Nachal Chareidi, to defend the country acknowledging this as a Milchemet Mitzvah which one is not excused,
-- Thank you for listening.
Sincerely,
Robin Ticker
This email is L'Ilui Nishmat Yisrael ben David Aryeh ob"m (Izzy - Kaplan) a great activist and lover of Eretz Yisroel, Am Yisroel and the Torah. Yehi Zichrono Baruch.
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Sincerely,
Robin Ticker
This email is L'Ilui Nishmat Yisrael ben David Aryeh ob"m (Izzy - Kaplan) a great activist and lover of Eretz Yisroel, Am Yisroel and the Torah. Yehi Zichrono Baruch.
