Tuesday, June 19, 2012

In response to Manhigut Yehudit who still insists on staying with Likud in response to Prof. Eidelberg

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Shmuel Sacket of Manhigut Yehudit (also via Shlomo Walfish, a Manhigut Yehudit activist who posted Shmuel's comment on my blog)  responds to the following post on  Shemittahrediscovered: 


Prof. Eidelberg said 

"First and foremost, Mr. Feiglin—may he live and be well—must be persuaded to leave the Likud and join with other to establish a United Front on behalf of Eretz Yisroel. So long as Feiglin hitches his star to the Likud, he divides the nationalist camp and undermines his own Jewish principles.

Second, a concerted effort must be made to unite the nationalist camp behind a new and comprehensive program, one that includes a youth movement that vehemently calls for:

1) Jewish sovereignty over Judea and Samaria, hence abrogation of Oslo;

(2) a Jewish Democratic Constitution with authentic institutional checks and balances, which requires (a) separation of the Legislative and Executive branches of government; (b) a unitary Executive elected by the people; (c) limitations on the powers of the Supreme Court;

(3) Reactivation and vitalization of the Foundations of Law act that makes Jewish law primus inter pares with other systems of law now affecting judicial rulings—hence, explicit rejection of the monstrous dictum "everything is justiciable," a dictum that violates not only democratic and Jewish principles, but the very concept of the rule of law."


Shmuel Sackett responds.  Please see my comments below in purple, a nice royal color (note not orange) Robin

From: Shmuel Sackett
Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 2:34 PM
To:
Subject: RE: Some Priorities for a New Nationalist Camp by Prof. Paul Eidelberg

Short answer: Been there, done that.

Long answer: What the heck does a "NATIONALIST CAMP" mean?
Do you include the Haredim – who abstained from the Ulpana vote because as their MK Eichler said, "When is the last time the Dati Leumi helped the Haredim so why should we help them?
Shas – who supported Oslo?
Lieberman – who is pro Palestinian state and wants to bring more pig ("bassar lavan") into Israel?
Basically, what this nonsense calls for is for all the "orange camp" people to unite and form a party. The problem is – as soon as you do that you may certainly be a "CAMP" but you no longer interest the "NATION". You are an outsider. A "one issue" party. You affect nothing, change nothing, influence nothing and ACCOMPLISH nothing.
The only way, repeat: THE ONLY WAY to make the changes we are looking for is from I-N-S-I-D-E Likud.
This does not "divide the national camp" as Professor Eidelberg says… it UNITES the Nationalist camp into the ONE PLACE where things can actually get done.
What does divide the nationalist camp is when Professor Eidelberg runs as a separate party called "Yamin Yisrael". That party – which he claimed would receive over 60 mandates – divided the nationalist camp by pulling AWAY tens of thousands of votes that went straight down the toilet. His party did so poorly in the elections that they did not even pass the minimum number of votes to get into the Knesset and all those votes were washed away. Now THAT is called "dividing the national camp".
Moshe Feiglin, on the other hand, has called for people to join Likud. Less than 6 months ago there were elections for the head of Likud. It was between 2 candidates: Netanyahu vs Feiglin. As we all know, Netanyahu won… but do we know how many votes separated these 2 men? About 20,000. Imagine that for a second.
Had 21,000 Nationalists joined Likud instead of all the parties that are now history: Yamin Yisrael, Techiya, Achi, Moledet, Tzomet and about 10 others… the head of Likud T-O-D-A-Y would be Moshe Feiglin.

Do you think we would be having this discussion if that happened?
Do you think the residents of Givat Ulpana and Migron would be sleeping better if – already today – Moshe Feiglin would be the head of Likud?

THAT'S the way… the ONLY way to go.

---------------------------------------------------------------
In response:

Short answer: Been there, done that. Not true.  When was the last time Manhigut Yehudit joined other parties like National Union or Paul Eidelberg's party such as Yamin Yisrael, Techiya, Achi, Moledet, Tzomet and about 10 others…and tried to unite those who believe in the Torah and the Divine Covenant that G-d promised the Land to Israel.  The boundaries of Eretz Yisroel are delineated in Parshat Masei and happens to include Judea and Samaria. That is NOT the only part of the Torah that these parties wish to adhere to but it is fundamental to Torah.  

Did it ever occur to Manhigut Yehudit that the reason small parties failed was not because their message was too separatist, since the message is Torah which is universal, but rather because Manhigut Yehudit and perhaps other religious MKs were afraid that a Torah Message would be perceived as separatist and were overly concerned with the negative PR a Torah message would generate. Manhigut didn't want to be labeled as "extremists".  That didn't work because under Likud that is their label anyway. 

 Let us not be deceptive.  Manhigut's message is a Torah message.  Any Torah message will represent all of Israel and not only Judea and Samaria. A Torah message will represent all Jews as well as Non Jews in a fair and equitable way.  Unfortunately, it is Manhigut Yehudit who is labeling other parties as being separatists adding to the negative PR  of these parties who base their ideology on Torah. 

Torah parties like UTJ and Shas did not unite under a Torah Message with the above mentioned parties because they were into making deals rather than representing Torah and the Covenant Hashem made between our forefathers and Avraham Yitzchok and Yaakov.  Unfortunately, Torah took a back burner when these parties allowed themselves to be bought off for "worthy causes" such as housing subsidies and educational subsidies or ministerial positions. 
 
Long answer: What the heck does a "NATIONALIST CAMP" mean? Nationalist Camp is typically the Masorati Israeli who believes in the concept of a Greater Israel which includes Judea and Samaria
Do you include the Haredim – Haredim usually follow their Rav.  Sometimes the Rav decides on issues related to Judea and Samaria unfavorably from the perspective of the Nationalist camp, based on political deals which affect their housing, education and whether their Bachurim can be saved from being drafted into the IDF rather than on looking at the broader picture and what is best for the entire Nation. who abstained from the Ulpana vote because as their MK Eichler said, "When is the last time the Dati Leumi helped the Haredim so why should we help them? fyi It was reported that Eichler voted for the Ulpana Bill as directed by the Belze Rav while Rav Shteinman instructed UTJ MK's to vote against the Bill. Wheeling and dealing is politics which Likud and especially Netanyahu is a master chess player.  Furthermore, the system encourages such wheeling and dealing and one of the platforms of a new party would be reform of the electoral process and checks and balances between the branches of gov't so that such wheeling and dealing is not so prevalent.  However, if you stick with Likud, and finally get into power will you, Moshe Feiglin and advisors, want to limit your power and encourage the necessary reform or will you say I finally made it and there is no way I am going to give up the power that is built into the ruling elite.   
Shas – who supported Oslo? We are all human and we have all made mistakes including Likud.  That is why starting fresh for all is a good idea.  Even Shas can do Teshuva. 
Lieberman – who is pro Palestinian state and wants to bring more pig ("bassar lavan") into Israel? Is there any point in speaking Lashon Hara unless it is LeToeles?  Many fall into the category of Tinok Shenishba. 

Shmuel, Don't rationalize and comfort yourself by saying I can continue what I'm doing even if it is wrong because others are doing wrong as well. Focus on yourself and do what is right and then try to convince others to do what is right.
Basically, what this nonsense calls for is for all the "orange camp" people to unite and form a party. What is good for the Orange camp is good for all of Israel and is good for all of America and is good for all believers in the Bible.  That is a very large camp.   The problem is – as soon as you do that you may certainly be a "CAMP" but you no longer interest the "NATION". You are an outsider.  A one "issue" party. We are not only looking out for the "Orange Camp" but also by extension the Jewish Nation and also looking out for All Nations to be protected under our camp.  This one issue is the number one issue of our enemies including the EU the United Nations and President Obama.  They are obsessed with the settlements. You affect nothing, change nothing, influence nothing and ACCOMPLISH nothingi.
The only way, repeat: THE ONLY WAY to make the changes we are looking for is from I-N-S-I-D-E Likud  Not if there is no serious reform as suggested by Paul Eidelberg and Netanyahu continues to have control over the MK's so that they are not free to vote their conscience but must vote as a bloc.  Likud needs to have the Torah ideology in order to have G-d's approval.  Surely we can not affect nothing, change nothing,influence nothing and accomplish nothing w/o Hashem's guiding hand. If we value PR over what is truth we might win a short term battle but I don't see how we can win a war. .
This does not "divide the national camp" as Professor Eidelberg says… it UNITES the Nationalist camp into the ONE PLACE where things can actually get done.
What does divide the nationalist camp is when Professor Eidelberg runs as a separate party called "Yamin Yisrael". That party – which he claimed would receive over 60 mandates – divided the nationalist camp by pulling AWAY tens of thousands of votes that went straight down the toilet. His party did so poorly in the elections that they did not even pass the minimum number of votes to get into the Knesset and all those votes were washed away. Now THAT is called "dividing the national camp". Perhaps if the other parties would have been willing to be Mevatel themselves in order to unite under an ideology that represented Torah and what is best for humanity and not only the "orange camp" and not been so afraid of negative PR, and perhaps if other religious parties had not allowed themselves to be bought off with deals, perhaps, Prog. Eidelberg would have received his 60 mandates. 
Moshe Feiglin, on the other hand, has called for people to join Likud. Less than 6 months ago there were elections for the head of Likud. It was between 2 candidates: Netanyahu vs Feiglin. As we all know, Netanyahu won… but do we know how many votes separated these 2 men? About 20,000. Imagine that for a second. If Netanyahu is so afraid of Feiglin Al Achat Kama veKama. how much more so, he would be afraid if Feiglin and other Likud members joined with National Union, Bayit Yehudi, Shas, Yahadut HaTorah etc.
Had 21,000 Nationalists joined Likud instead of all the parties that are now history: Yamin Yisrael, Techiya, Achi, Moledet, Tzomet and about 10 others… the head of Likud T-O-D-A-Y would be Moshe Feiglin. But is Likud's ideology consistent with Feiglin's Torah ideology?
 
Do you think we would be having this discussion if that happened? It should have happened and it didn't. The fact that Netanyahu tricked Feiglin from winning time and time again is a sign that perhaps Feiglin is not where he should be and should reconsider and be in a Torah environment like a Fish in water. And I am not afraid to say that a Torah environment is the environment for all of humanity and not just the "orange camp".   Please read Paul Eidelbergs discussion about Hebraic law..... 
 
-Shmuel

Paul Eidelberg writes: 
Please consider the following "hypothesis". If  "Hareidi" leaders understood and promoted the program of this writer, they would save and soon control the country.  This unique program shows how to promote the Torah by means of democratic principles, and how to promote democracy by means of Torah principles. The "Hareidim" constitute the only major cohesive group in Israel. They only lack a program that will trump their critics. They must show--and this the present has shown in more than one book--that the Torah does not mandate a theocracy, and that both Catholic and Protestant Hebraists of the 17th and 18th centuries have maintained that Jewish law and the Hebraic Republic of antiquity are more just and more wise than any alternative, (I have written a book on he subject,) highlighting is mine. Robin


Eidelberg
--
Sincerely,

Robin Ticker
Activist emails sent to my list  are L'Ilui Nishmat Yisrael ben David Aryeh ob"m (Izzy - Kaplan)  a great activist and lover of Eretz Yisroel, Am Yisroel and the Torah. Yehi Zichrono Baruch.

Most of these emails are posted on Shemittahrediscovered.blogspot.com 

Personal emails to individuals will not be posted to my blog. 

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